Like we suggested at the very start exchange seems to be occuring. Maybe not directly out of the cart, but hey it was only a metaphor.
This is the conversation to date with Paul, i think its a good one for this blog, and perhaps enables to think deeply about our work and our intentions.
On 13 Jul 2011, at 16:00, paul allender wrote
Hi Kate and Steve,
Thanks for meeting me today - it was very gracious of you given that I was making some semi-critical comments on the blog!
I like what you are doing and I am inspired by the different works for each of the shops on Buchanan. I love the neon sign and the purple wig!
I've just spoken to my mum - they were thinking of going to the English cafe anyway and they'll definitely go now I've told them about it - they'll check out the pics and will be able to tell if the steel houses one is our old road. I also spoke to her about you going along to her Monday morning group. She is up for it! I'll tell you more about that later.
What I really want to say though is quite difficult to talk about - difficult to put into words that is. Its something like - the value of art is important and where art and the people of Parson X meet, exciting, disgruntling, possibly upsetting, creative things can happen and that dynamic is great. I personally love lots of art that my mum and dad would not. But that doesn't mean they are right anymore than it means I am right. Instead, a dialogue can take place which respects all. I think your idea of a discussion group is an excellent one - I would love to participate in it. Because as someone from that estate who was inspired by art and took a life trajectory that is built upon that initial inspiration, it would be beyond arrogant to think that I am one of a small number of people who did or can do this. So, I think that art is meaningful for people on the estate - and what artists do doesn't have to always be what 'the people' want.
What is coming to mind is what you said about Martin Parr, Kate. I haven't looked at his stuff for some time now - but I had never in a million years thought that the stuff I have seen was mocking working class people in any way. I have loved the stuff I've seen - it seems to celebrate the culture I come from. Talking of Martin Parr, he has worked with Graham Fellows (John Shuttleworth).
I wonder if you think he is mocking w.c. people? There is certainly an element of mocking in John Shuttleworth - but much more importantly there is a glorious celebration of Sheffield working class life. I love John Shuttleworth! Graham Fellows comes from a middle class background but his observation and empathy about white w.c. culture is fantastic!
So, cos I am going on a bit - i would never think what you are doing is 'mocking' or looking down on or anything like that. And I am not sre that you can have that much control about how other people choose to respind to stuff can you?
Just to say - I am writing this in a comradely spirit - not an oppositional one.
Gotta go now!
Hopefully speak soon....
Best,
Paulx
Thanks Paul I really enjoyed meeting you today - I have had a really good day today - it was nice seeing the work and really nice to have the very Sheffield slight smirk and "It's awright that" comment but most of all it was the kids looking at the pictures in the cafe and the guys having a laugth with Paul about his sign and just the fact that it was a bit of" somat and nowt "as my gran would say.
I'm with you on Martin Parr I've always liked his photographs - I'm not sure about John Shuttlworth however as "Two margarine's on the go - it's a nightmare scenario" and "Do you want a Nam nan" can not compare to "get the volvo vera" or the earlier classic" Gordon is a moron."
I'm sure our paths will cross and please put an application in for the small commissions
STEVE
> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 20:25:51 +0100
> From: kate@kategenever.com
> To: spsheff@aol.com
> CC: paulallender@live.com
> Subject: Re: parson cross
>
> thanks paul for speaking to your mum and i would be really happy to
> meet her and her group. I hope she likes the photos.
> I suspect we are all trying to sing from the same hymn sheet [me,
> steve, you] re art, its position and its potential. I know in this
> case, meaning parson cross, i want to take people with me, i want to
> make collaboratively with them, i do not want to set myself apart -
> hence the work for the shops - something they want with a bit of us
> thrown into the mix.
> Re martin Parr - i think his work could be seen to celebrate/reveal
> the everyday life of all classes [think of those cocktail party ones
> aswell as the seaside stuff] Perhaps also like the work of Richard
> Billingham and Diane Arbus, there might have been a unmocking tone at
> the point of making - a document if you like [although im not sure of
> this and i do think they know what there doing for their own ends]-its
the final context that the work is shown in and who the
> audience the work is for that affects their meaning and therefore
> alters it. I suppose its the Gawp/Shock effect that i dont like for
> art/money ends. I think perhaps, like i said of the people laughing at
> the Mock Tudor wood on the council estate house photo, it doesnt sit
> well with me, i dont like the finger pointing, and the 'im better than
> you, what do you know' suggestions. It feels like the people are being
> used, for an artists own ends
> Anyway - perhaps we agree to disagree, its just not my cup of tea.
> No of course we cant have total control about how people respond, and
> thats what i continue to think about
> cheers and speak soon
> kate
Hi Kate,
It's great to hear from you - and I really like what you say here.
I guess it's not about Martin Parr as such - I think we have a good discussion going here and rather than agree to disagree, shall we carry on talking about it?
I would like to.
For me, I find it very difficult to write in a way that suggests potential conflict with others.
I don't want you to think I am being hostile in ANY way. I'm not.
And this is actually the first time I have had this type of discussion!
Your points raise some really important questions about the role of artists in societies - and in our case capitalist societies.
I started to think about these things when I was at art college in the second half of the 70's and it is only now that I have been able to properly talk about them!
I struggled at art college because it felt that what I was doing - and loved - had little relevance or 'usefulness' to the people on Parson Cross and indeed the people on the bus in Hull when
I travelled to college. It was difficult to love something and feel this. It felt like 'betrayal' of my class. I didn't invite anyone to my degree show - and I got into St Martin's College to do an MA in sculpture but I didn't go because I decided that art was too elitist. So I decided to study politics and sociology...
I can see this going on and on...so I'll stop now. Let me know what you would like to do. Do you want to carry on with a discussion in this way?
And YES - please put it on the blog - that would be great - I'd be happy to carry on on there.
If you have time and the inclination, it would be great to talk...!
I think you are right that we are all occupying similar terrain.
Oh and I asked my mum to say hello to you both the next time you are at the club on Tuesday night.
Best,
Paulx
what's it all about then? the discussion. the provision of community engaged art practice or sumot? don't wish to butt in but am finding it interesting.
ReplyDeletethe desire to create and show off? how much should i be recompensed for my time? art is a tool.
ReplyDeletehi ian, thanks for your thoughts. Are you a parson cross resident? Yes art is a tool for all sort of things and steve and i use it within our practice which we feel is relational and collaborative. we try to be useful and offer things to people that can be talking points, art and also have agency. So the work we have done for the shops that paul is talking of, came about instead of us doing a piece of public art that no one really wanted. Making Art objects are by their nature items to kind of show of through just like writing books, its about putting ideas out their in the world. However steve and i really try hard to work in a way that means our ego is not at the fore. Not sure what you mean about being recompensed for your time?
ReplyDeletehi kate. yeah am resident in P.X. what do you mean by having agency? i'm thinking about values not tied to the consideration of being financially recompensed for the time involved in the process of creation, do we really have to "earn a living". love don't pay the bills tho' but resources are wasted left, right and centre. So, i am in receipt of benefits and this is provided by taxation, if i produce a piece of ART in a public space is this a criminal act or a gift, putting something back if you like. Consultation? none, altruistic intent and thoughtful consideration of situation and design? yes. sorry just mulling over stuff. thanks for your time.
ReplyDeleteYou only have to read some of the comments from some of the artists in residence on Parson Cross to realise it is difficult for them to control what seems an instinctive urge to patronise but, Ian, they too are paid from the public purse. Unfortunately, when Ania said she didn't think people from Parson Cross would be looking at her site she was wrong because that is how I discovered her lyrics mentioned below. Look on the internet site 'Rotting Heads' lyrics, Flycheese - a u-tube video - and you will see what is thought of the people here.
DeleteOur role on parson cross was not one of consultation, but one of practice. I believe areas like parson cross are consulted too much and nothing much done. Yes money is wasted and jobs are not done properly. However our commission was to look deeply at how relational practice can work. Our role was not to engage communities - we both find this phrase difficult. it feels like enforced labour - meaning - you will have art whether you like it or not. i suppose then this is what i mean by agency - art work having a role as a catalyst perhaps or usefulness or as a vehicle for other things to happen. As i said before, that could be a shop sign or some photos that go some way in allowing a turkish man to embed himself in a community he is trying hard to be part of by being allowing him to have conversations about history and encourage others to see their place in this long line of time.
ReplyDeleteI agree we should all find our place in our communities and offer ourselves to act in a free way for the promotion of cohesion and alturism. i do that where i live too. You should watch the http://fora.tv/2010/09/29/David_Sloan_Wilson_Evolving_the_City video i talked about. it makes you think about how the alturistic act can be promoted and made more effective if others are doing it - there will always be selfish people but actually the more people see others doing good or being part of good the more likely they will join in. its fascinating. it also means we shouldnt force stuff down peoples throats. We should act with care, be thoughtful and work with what skills we have.
I agree that money is wasted in places like Parson Cross. For example, that spent on decorating the inside of the Hardware shop and painting of the shutters on Margetson. Shortly afterwards the shop was shut, its inside gutted and the shutters were either cleaned or replaced. What useful purpose did Ania's book serve? I would welcome any explanation. You are not the first person connected to Yorkshire Artspace to say that money is wasted in these areas but the majority of people here have neither knowledge of nor control over the multi-millions accessed on their behalf. Art? It doesn't put bread on the table but it can sometimes add a sparkle to someone's day or, in the case of Ania's lyrics, possibly depress and demoralise a whole neighbourhood! Should this be it's purpose???
DeleteHi Ian,
ReplyDeleteHope you are still looking on here. Do you do 'art' yourself? I am doing some.
I used to live on the estate myself a while ago - I was 11 when we moved there and 21 when I left. It is a 'big deal' for me.
If you would like to talk about any of this you can get me on here OR on paulallender@live.com
Hope to hear from you.
Paul
With her commissioning of the u tube video 'Rotting heads on Parson Cross' Ania Bas cast a dark shadow over the decent people of Parson Cross. It's lyrics are defamatory, discriminatory and prejudicial and approved by SOAR, Yorkshire Artspace etc. Yes, you are right Kate, artists should act with care and be thoughtful and there is nothing wrong in writing things based on proven facts but this work appears a blatant attempt to create a particular impression of the residents of Parson Cross which is ill deserved. Few here would have the mindset to create such a cruel piece of work and place it on the internet but Ania gives the impression her thinking was influenced by others passing on their own pre-conceived ideas who, similarly, have no concept of the true nature of the place. As Paul can testify, art can be found in the most unexpected places and, as a lifetime resident of Parson Cross, I'm not surprised to find it here! Altruism is also a natural, all too often unrecognised, feature of the area that Ania's lyrics failed to mention.
ReplyDeleteHi Julie - sorry we have only just seen your comments, this is an old blog from 2011 and we so dont keep looking. However we have now found you and your thoughts and glad that you are involved in this ever problematic discussion of art and its uses.
ReplyDeleteSteve and i made the wallpaper for Kath as part of a larger series of commission we created for shops on PX...some are very much in use fro example - the vinyls on the hairdressers and the Stallions neon in the barbers; turned on and off when he opens and shuts respectively - both on Buchannan. Obviously we didnt know Kath's shop would shut when the paper was made for her, this was a decision of economics, made at very short notice. We helped her take it down and a part of it was displayed in the Learning Zone after her closure as a monument. The painted shuttering was painted out due to the council demanding a "clean" front for prospective clients - kath fought to leave it suggesting that it was a waste and also a clean shutter encouraged "tagging".
Your comments do not fall on deaf ears here although we would like to reinforce that money given to arts on PX is not money that has been removed from provision or services for the area. It is money that will have been assigned to arts - what we think of those arts is of course also the point. Steve and I are working on PX at the moment and are developing a studio in SOAR works that hosts several local residents. We have used money we have been given to support this space and enable another wise prohibitive space accessible for locals. Would you like to visit us and have a cup of tea,,we would like to have a chat face to face and show you the work that is going on?
Oh and we wanted to say that we were happy to see your letter to Ania included in her book, we thought it made for a much better publication and was pleased alternate 'voices' were given space.
Thanks for the response Kate. I realise money is given specifically for the arts but surely it is meant to benefit an area. Can you honestly say that Ania's u-tube video, displayed for all to wrongly judge the people here,is beneficial or leaves a good impression of the purpose of Residencies. Interestingly, most of the people to whom I have spoken (usually beyond the Margetson area)look puzzled and ask: 'What is SOAR?' 'Who is Yorkshire Artspace?' and mostly 'Has somebody been paid for this?' Somebody seriously misjudged the residents here!!
ReplyDeleteHowever, what a light at the end of the tunnel in the form of Olivia Punnett. Her response to 'Dave's' comment: 'if I win the lottery the only thing you'll see is my bum disappearing round the corner. It's about getting off the estate you see' is quite remarkable. Instead of weakening the area it has the potential to lift people to where they were before government, council, media etc served to destroy it.
Thanks for this response Olivia: 'What if the escape route is right where you are? Maybe you don't need to leave a place to see it in a different way'.
Let's hope this glimmer of light triggers a change in attitudes because if people are publicly painted in a bad way, some people will do bad things. On the other hand .............. Will art succeed where many other agencies have failed????
Quote from Heton Shah: Royal Statistical Society re: Ipsos Mori Poll:
ReplyDeletePerils of Perception
'Our data poses real challenges for policy makers. How can you develop good policy when public perception can be so out of kilter with the evidence?'
The u tube video 'Rotting Heads on Parson Cross' continues to be shown. The cruel lyrics written by Ania Bas and the subsequent video commissioned by the same casts a dark shadow over the work of Yorkshire Artspace and SOAR who supported Ania.
ReplyDeleteThis is my response to the lyrics that continue to pour shame on the area:
Changing face of the working class.
Industry gone now the working man – a 'workhorse' from the day he was born - is surplus to requirements and viewed with scorn in this technological age which, at every stage, sees the middle class advancing, under-privileged dancing to their tune in voluntary roles – many unpaid – only their time and skills to trade in exchange for a place in society. A lowly role - a serf no less but its better than lounging on the dole I guess. Yet the ones who prospered through free uni places, throw their advantage back in the faces of working men who paid through the ages, funding those uni's out of their wages. Yet few in those swollen ranks of men, entered those hallowed halls back then and now the offspring of those chosen few look down on the likes of me and you. A new generation flaunting their power, growing ever more arrogant with each passing hour. Sadly, the demise of production jobs has heightened the power of the suited snobs, the mentors advising, despising the poor and unemployed their own spirits buoyed whilst believing that somehow it's their vocation - to teach and lift us to a higher station. Blinded, they view us all as the same and keep themselves well ahead of the game because without poverty, ignorance and need their own jobs would flounder and they too would bleed – as they join the ranks of those on the dole and find themselves tumbling into the hole, joining the ones whose pride they once stole with their verses, descriptions of strangers unmet and yet …... we will never forget this land of milk and honey was built on the efforts of men making money that funded the jewels in England's crown – the NHS – the welfare state - a legacy handed down on a plate to the needy, the weak and all whose lives might otherwise be bleak. Sadly those folk with grimy clothes and blackened face have over the years now fallen from grace and given way to a suited breed manning well paid charitable jobs in their own hour of need. Charity – bah humbug – it's all a disgrace, a scar on the face of the whole human race.
No answer Julie to the shocking words in that video and on page 66 of the book, so take that as they support the slagging and pulling down of the people of parson cross and if that is called art I don't want to know it.
DeleteRob, it's all presumption on their part! Shall we tell them what we think of the 'arty crowd' that displays such ignorance! No, better not we might spoil the manners instilled in us from birth! MARY STEELE Aka known as Julie D.
DeleteMy name is Leah Brown, I'm a happy woman today? I told myself that any loan lender that could change my life and that of my family after having been scammed separately by these online loan lenders, I will refer to anyone who is looking for loan for them. It gave me and my family happiness, although at first I had a hard time trusting him because of my experiences with past loan lenders, I needed a loan of $300,000.00 to start my life everywhere as single mother with 2 children, I met this honest and God fearing online loan lender Gain Credit Loan who helped me with a $300,000.00 loan, working with a loan company Good reputation. If you are in need of a loan and you are 100% sure of paying the loan please contact (gaincreditloan1@gmail.com) You can also whatsApp them at: at +44-75967-81743 (WhatsApp Only) .. and inform them Leah Brown addressed to you ..
ReplyDeleteIt is now 2018. Can we honestly say that the money spent on art on Parson Cross has made a difference? Many people benefited financially but the one abiding legacy of Art on Parson Cross is the dreadful verse and video 'Rotting Heads on Parson Cross'. The artwork in the shops on Margetson has gone with the passage of time. In fact, what benefit did any of it have for the neighbourhood. Answers on a postage stamp please!
ReplyDelete